Curse

Rogmar · Jun 24, 2006, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaos Herald

Signed, but only for the ele rune, as there is currently no cure for exhaustion.

It's there to prevent powerful skills from being spammed, it's the control factor of energy that's not limited by regen or gaining energy. Otherwise Elementalits that are BiP'd will be able to spam tons of high damage skills. There is the skill Second Wind that lets you regain some of that energy. Exhaustion to Elementalits is like Melee range for Warriors and Assassins.

BahamutKaiser · Jun 24, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Exhaustion is to any class using elementist secondary no different than lack of armor is for any class using warrior secondary, something to keep other classes from excelling at those classes skills.

A warrior already has the highest armor, so he already has any other class attempting melee snubbed, he will do more damage, and he will take less, and to improve upon that, he also has (guess what?) absorbtion runes, to further improve his advantage at his realm of combat over anyone else trying to fake it.

Likewise, an Elementist has higher energy that way he can still cast spells with the energy left after using an exhaustion skill, an other class trying to use elementist skills with exhaustion will lose anywhere from 1/4, to 1/2 of their max energy for an extended period of time. But even with massive amounts of energy the elementist can shutdown his own energy supply with any fast recast exhaustion skill, elementist is ment to be able to function with these skills well, but even with massive amounts of energy (around 100), repeatative use of exhaustion skills takes a serious bite out of his energy pool, besides energy cost.

A rune to make Elementist better with his exhaustion skills is no different than a rune to give Warrior even higher defense when he already has the best, another boost at his primary role. An Elementists primary role is having alot of energy to keep casting, and the easiest way to improve that without giving him alot more energy to use any number of spells, or more energy regeneration to last longer, is to give him a little exhaustion management which will only improve his use with a few key elementist spells. Reducing Exhaustion by 1, 2, and 3 points only reduces the effect of exhaustion (exhaustion causes 10 energy loss), helping Elementist preserve a little more energy from his Exhausting skills, we arn't asking to remove it all together, just an extra advantage for elementist with his unique skill type.

The truth is, without even better exhaustion managment, Ranger blows Elementist out of the water for energy management, there is a significant reason why touch rangers are more common than touch elementist, because Expertise saves more energy and is a better energy management attribute for anything other than exhaustion skills, Elementist exhaustion managment needs an upgrade.

They could also introduce a single elementist rune which simply reduces exhaustion recovery time instead, increasing its recovery speed by 1 regen.

The other thing is, new class specific runes for other classes don't need to be penalty free. I know this is a "everyone deservese penalty free boosts" thread, but if it is a strong rune with a significantly improving effect, it could have a penalty just like other runes. Many Elementist builds would benifit more from an exhaustion reducing rune more than an elemental attribute boosting rune, and even if it has a health penalty, they may use that instead, or with other superior runes. Casters and ranged attackers are much less prone to need added health than Warrior and Assassin, making new class specific runes with penalties, ones which are focal on improving that classes specialties, is still a good option, they may be more valuable than the penalty runes we already have, or at least be worth the penalty for such an improvement. The only classes which need non-penalty runes are other melee classes like assassin, surely assassin is weak enough, whatever boost they can afford him doesn't need to come with a penalty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuoba Hturt Eht

Does anyone still remembers that Warriors only have 2 pips of energy regeneration? Rangers have 3 pips, but they have Expertise to deal with that, and the rest have 4 pips.

I vote No for "New no-drawback runes for non warrior classes"

Absorbtion Runes' drawback is the fact that Warrior Armor does not provide any other additional pip of energy regeneration.

If non warrior class receive "new no-drawback runes", then Warriors must receive something new too to compensate.

Warrior has higher defense, much higher defense, and uses adrenaline as his primary skill cost source, this isn't a "Warrior has less and deserves more" analogy, it is a "I am overlooking the different advantages Warrior armor has compared to caster armor" perspective. The fact that Warrior has More armor instead of energy amount and regen is a straight trade, and when you include the fact that Warrior opperates primarily on adrenaline rather than energy, the whole "mages have more energy on their armor" isn't even an arguement. Warriors have a very reasonable alternative to energy, and their armor is equipted to save energy on healing since they take less damage, wile their primary skill cost runs on something else.

Since this was overlooked, I will repeat it. A class who can benifit from 2 skill cost sources isn't at some disadvantage to a class who has more energy, yet only has skills for that one kind of energy.

And the adrenaline other classes can get, but can't use, doesn't count as an energy source for them. The only class that has adrenaline skills is Warrior, and there are very few skills which will help a caster play better in the warrior skill list, the very few defensive skills are rarely effective enough on a caster to keep him alive, and using melee attacks with a caster only proves how much of an advantage Warriors armor gives them at their realm of combat.

I have an Assassin/Warrior, and unless they make some adrenaline based healing skills in tactics, that adrenaline isn't going anywhere, the fact that Assassin has to use Warrior (the least helpful survival secondary) in order to even use adrenaline skills, and woln't benifit nearly as much as warrior, isn't an argument that Warrior should have exclusive rights to non drawback runes. I know from experience that a A/W is realy poor, Assassin doesn't benifit enough from Warrior skills to make it effective, and his lack of defense compared to warrior almost demands that he take a secondary which provides him with some real healing skills.

The idea that Warriors are forced to use 3 attributes and other classes can use more is hogwash too, first of all, he can use any number of other attributes from other classes, W/Mo for example. And no different than warrior, if a caster splits his attribute points into more than 3 attributes, the skills become too weak to be effective, not every class is built like monk, some casters almost require max points in 2 attributes to deal good damage (which is where I get to elementist who needs max points in energy storage to overcome exhaustion).

Rogmar · Jun 24, 2006, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

...

So who would be better off? Elementalist with around 40 energy, or Warrior with 70 armor?
Most of you are ignoring the fact that it's only -3 damage...It doesn't factor at all in team strategy. If absorption runes were removed, the game would still be the same. Absorption simply doesn't affect the game by much...How can you honestly think that an extra -3 will make this Warrior much better. You must be overlooking the fact that in PvP warriors are ignored most of the time. If their high armor was such a threat, why don't you see necromancers carrying Weaken Armor? You say our primary role is carrying lots of armor?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

A rune to make Elementist better with his exhaustion skills is no different than a rune to give Warrior even higher defense when he already has the best, another boost at his primary role.

What kind of role is that? Especially since warriors aren't main targets anyways. The way I see it is warriors pretty much are 2 different classes. The armor comes in PvE for tanking, and the weapon attribute comes into PvP for damage. This is like the elementalist, like before the nerf who had Fire magic to nuke PvE and used Air magic to nuke PvP targets...
Instead of Anet making warriors more flexible with other secondaries, they give us an absorption rune to make us more effective with our primary...

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

I have an Assassin/Warrior, and unless they make some adrenaline based healing skills in tactics, that adrenaline isn't going anywhere, the fact that Assassin has to use Warrior (the least helpful survival secondary) in order to even use adrenaline skills, and woln't benifit nearly as much as warrior, isn't an argument that Warrior should have exclusive rights to non drawback runes. I know from experience that a A/W is realy poor, Assassin doesn't benifit enough from Warrior skills to make it effective, and his lack of defense compared to warrior almost demands that he take a secondary which provides him with some real healing skills.

Or you can increase your "Uber-weak" armor (which is btw higher than caster's) by using a low cost "Watch Yourself" and mitigate that damage so you don't need to heal...You can also use a number of IAS stances from warrior to increase the effectiveness of Vampiric, Zealous, Criticals, etc. If anyone benefits from warrior secondary, it's an assassin...

BahamutKaiser · Jun 24, 2006, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Watch Yourself was my first option for Assassin, and guess what, it doesn't do nearly enough to keep me well defended, 20 extra armor on a warrior may be invicibility, but on an assassin it is just enough to survive a nuke. A warriors -3 damage on top of the highest armor rating in the game is enough to ensure that normal attacks from most classes do nothing, and against an assassin, those 7-10 damage attacks get reduced to 4-7 damage attacks, that is alot of damage over time, as if they arn't more then defended enough as it is.

Assassin can't get jack from Warriors stances, if he used any of those IAS stances he would be a walking dead man, or his already retardedly low DoT would hit for no damage at all, and Warriors evasion vs melee and projectile attacks don't work regularly enough to keep an assassin alive, speaking from experience, it doesn't work. The fact that you think adding Warrior secondary to Assassin to compete with warriors capabilities when you could easily add anything to Warrior as a secondary and outmatch him is ridiculous, it is another weak attempt to stack chips in the oppositions favor to make it look balanced, if you add to one side then you add to both sides or it is unbalanced, and trying to compare Assassins capabilities with a Warrior secondary to make it look feasible on paper, when adding a caster secondary to Warrior is known for it's "indestructible" qualities, is just lame.

We already KNOW, Warrior is more effective and versitile as a Melee class, the damage taken on the front line of battle and at melee range is the highest, and Assassin hasn't been given the skills to avoid half as much damage as Warrior can brush off just because of his armor class, Assassin gets more energy but not the skills to compensate for his lack of defense, and Warrior uses adrenaline in his attacks so having less energy on his armor isn't even a loss, it is a very effective trade. My Assassin has just about the same survival chances as an elementist teleporting into battle an nuking the enemy, and I woln't even compare damage figures, Assassin has it worse than Warrior by a long shot, and trying to etch out a concept that Warrior deserves special runes more than Assassin in the mountain that says Assassin is weaker is a joke. Any good Assassin knows you either take Ranger secondary, or use teleports to outweigh the lack of armor Assassin has, but the teleports are too expensive, and have far to long a cast time, they may avoid a little damage, but Warriors just stand there and brush off the damage of the front line without bothering to retreat, without bothering to pause his onslaught, and hell, lets just shave 3 more points of damage off anything that hits him.

We could very well say that Warriors absorbtion runes should be taken away because they certainly don't need them, but having more options for each class is more fun then taking away what some have already had time to appreciate. Reducing the exhaustion on Elementist doesn't change his tactic in gameplay either, in fact, it doesn't increase his spike damage an ounce, the only thing it does is dampen his self inflicted energy shutdown. This gives Elementist an extra 3 or 4 casts of an exhaustion spell before going totaly broke with max +rune energy management, as if they don't have to manage energy as well, more importantly, it would require less energy storage to use exhaustion skills so they don't have to put max plus superior runes into it just to get along more then 5 or 6 uses of an exhaustion skill.

Absorbtion allows Warrior to shave off up to 3 damage on every incoming hit, his armor is already enough, but this is just another cornerstone to the fact that the warrior is the hardest enemy to take down. An elementist has the highest energy in the game, a reduce exhaustion rune will only improve his unique ability to function with exhaustion skills a little more, just like Warrior with damage. Warriors are ment to be defensive powerhouses, and they get a rune to boost that effect, Elementist is ment to be an exhaustion champion, a rune to improve this role would be exactly the same, an improvement to something that they are ment to be the best at, and something they could realy use because they can be extremely exhaustion intensive, the same as Warrior is defense intensive.

Backwards Necro · Jun 26, 2006, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Awesome....so can anyone explain to me what rogmar and bahamut are arguing about...Im such a slow reader it woudl take me forever to finish that, adn I have to go soon --;

Chaco Nautzi · Jun 26, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Since I agree with kaiser and he countered everything that you've said rogmar, I really dont knwo what there is to say

Having the 1-2-3 point exhaustion reduction runes would help a great deal while still not being over powered and the assassin could benefit from either higher armor or like a class specific rune for them o:

PsychoX · Jun 26, 2006, 07:54 PM // 19:54

No thanks.

And, why only non-warrior classes..?

Rikimaru · Jun 26, 2006, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Because warriors already have them. And they're the only ones with them.
It's bad enouph they have nearly twice as many armor sets as every other class.

Ineffiable · Jun 26, 2006, 08:42 PM // 20:42

I'll sign this, cause increasing healing range sounds like a cool thing (monk rune)

What I'm afraid is, when these are first released, they will soon rise to 100k a rune.

Winterclaw · Jun 26, 2006, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Here's what I can think of

Elementalist: Spell Extention runes, spells have greater range/aoe
Mesmer: Spell Recharge runes, spells recharge faster
Monk: Judgement runes, attacks do +1/+2/+3 damage
Rit: Fast Spawning runes, spirits are summoned faster
All classes: Recharger runes, one use skills can be used 1-3 extra times

Rogmar · Jun 26, 2006, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Here's what I can think of

Elementalist: Spell Extention runes, spells have greater range/aoe
Mesmer: Spell Recharge runes, spells recharge faster
Monk: Judgement runes, attacks do +1/+2/+3 damage
Rit: Fast Spawning runes, spirits are summoned faster
All classes: Recharger runes, one use skills can be used 1-3 extra times

Those aren't even close to balanced as what warrior absorption does to his class...
If warriors have lots of armor towards physical attacks, then use elemental and armor ignoring (chaos, holy, dark, etc) There's a reason why warriors get tons of armor towards physical, you aren't supposed to use physical vs warriors...
It's similar to expecting one warrior to solo a monk. The monk is going to out heal you and probably use guardian to evade you, so what do you do? You use mesmers. If everything were effective vs each other what is the point of different classes?
So if the Assassin doesn't work well with warrior secondaries, or doesnt work period...maybe it's the class that needs fixing, not the entire game...
I know every other class can do a good deal of damage to the warrior, so maybe you need to rethink your builds?
I've even seen assassins do their fair share of damage to warriors, the only problem is their low armor doesnt let them stay in that range
The only time absorption comes into play is when you dont use skills and you attack normally...

Rikimaru · Jun 26, 2006, 10:35 PM // 22:35

I'm going to say this one more time; Permanent -- Assassin -- Sprint animation!!!
YES!! Please give us +run speed runes for assassins.
Like I said, it only has to be like 3/6/9%.

Unbalancing? NO!
Rediculously cool and fun? HELL YES!

Tuoba Hturt Eht · Jun 26, 2006, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikimaru

Because warriors already have them. And they're the only ones with them.
It's bad enouph they have nearly twice as many armor sets as every other class.

So its not bad enough that them warriors only have 2 pips of energy regeneration? Which is half of what everyone else have? (except Rangers, which have 3 pips of regeneration, but they have Expertise to make up for that)

silv3rr · Jun 27, 2006, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuoba Hturt Eht

So its not bad enough that them warriors only have 2 pips of energy regeneration? Which is half of what everyone else have? (except Rangers, which have 3 pips of regeneration, but they have Expertise to make up for that)

Read what Bahamut's been saying... it should clear that up for you easily...

I like Riki's idea... perm-sprint-animation FTW

BrotherGilburt · Jun 27, 2006, 12:36 AM // 00:36

OVER POWERED!!!!!

/notsigned

Brother Gilburt

BahamutKaiser · Jun 27, 2006, 01:25 AM // 01:25

I have to agree that Winter Claws recent suggestion is overpowered. About the only one which could be considered is recharge reduction, and that might be considerable if it was something like 1%, 3% and 5% recast reduction.

The end result is that some people will never see things beyond their scope of perception, even with the figures clearly laid in front of them. I am certain there are figures I have overlooked as well, I have done it in the past, but what is obvious is that Assassins are second choice to Warriors on a regular basis, and it is more than a rune will fix, so whether or not other classes get some specialized runes of their own doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

The only real point is that it would make players happy if they had something more, and as long as they can add some class specific runes, even if they include a penalty, without being unbalanced, than it is an improvement, because more people are happy. Whether these runes come in sets of 3, increasing in effectiveness, or certain class only has one, which is exactly how powerful the rune should be without being overpowered, or even if it still had a penalty for a unique addition, it would still be an improvement, because more people would be happy. Anet can make some sort of class specific runes for all other classes without being unbalanced, one way or another, whether or not they will accept the request is the bottom line.

Chaco Nautzi · Jun 27, 2006, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikimaru

I'm going to say this one more time; Permanent -- Assassin -- Sprint animation!!!
YES!! Please give us +run speed runes for assassins.
Like I said, it only has to be like 3/6/9%.

Ok so what exactly is the point of this there would be no use for it in pvp...and pve would have a use...but it would be again pointless/stupid.

It isnt unbalancing, no. But why would you need it?

Rikimaru · Jun 27, 2006, 03:33 AM // 03:33

It gives you a small edge when chasing enemies or running away from them, or rushing in past archers/casters. And Assassins do more running away from or after people than any other class. Your usually fleeing because of the crappy defense, and you're usually chasing because of the great spike damage.

Chaco Nautzi · Jun 27, 2006, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Fleeing isnt exactly the best thing to do in PvP anyway(well when necessary it is)...(such as someone constantly running prolonging a match much longer than necessary)

And I really think if damage is your problem we shoudl get the evasion rune, I think running away would piss too many people off D:

Rikimaru · Jun 27, 2006, 03:51 AM // 03:51

But with an evasion rune, you don't get the permanent sprint animation

I Mean comeon, how many people could be pissed while staring at the back of an animation as cool as that?